Who should lions draft?

[millenbacker]

It's that time of year again where we debate endlessly over who the Lions should draft in April. With the number two pick of the draft there are likely 4 possible players the Lions could draft, all in areas the Lions have a big need.

1) Nadukong Suh DT, Nebraska: After one of the most dominating seasons by a defensive tackle in the history of college football, some view Suh as the best player on either side of the ball. Quick, strong, excellent motor and use of hands. While he would be a welcomed force on the Lions DL it is likely that Suh will be drafted by St Louis with the first pick.

2) Gerald McCoy DT, Oklahoma:
As it stands right now the current starters on the Lions DL are an over the hill 37 year old and a rookie 4th round pick and there is no depth worth mentioning. McCoy might have been the first DT taken in last years draft had he declared then but he decided to stay in school another year. He can penetrate and make plays in the backfield and holds his own against the run. He would finally give the Lions an elite DT presence and fill a huge need on the DL.

3) Eric Berry FS,Tennessee: It's hard to find any kind of weakness in Berry's game; all you can really say is that he does not quite have imposing size at 5'11'' and 203 pounds. He hits like a truck, has excellent instincts, and is an interception machine. Playing opposite of Delmas, Berry would give the Lions one of the more imposing saftey combinations in the NFL.

4) Russell Okung OT,Oklahoma State: Okung should be one of the first offensive tackles taken in the draft and that makes him a candidate to be the first overall selection. While the Lions OL is in need of upgrades, some feel the need is more at OG rather than OT. Okung would be an upgrade BUT we may have bigger needs right now than an OT.

All 4 players have been scouted to death. We know their strengths and weaknesses and we'll learn even more than we really need to know leading up to the draft. All four players would have an immidiate impact. Free Agency could impact who we draft, if we stay put or trade down. While the lions top quick is getting all the attention it will be equally if not more important for the lions to draft well throughout the draft and add several more building blocks to the base.
Suh, McCoy, Berry, or Okung?

We win whichever one we pick.


MB

[Texan4Lions]

I would take Berry because I believe Suh will not be available to us at #2. If Suh were available I would take him. Granted this is VERY early in this process and after watching more and more tapes/videos of guys coming out and we have no idea what the player agreement situation is alot can happen over the course of the next 3-4 months. FA's are another factor, who can we land?

Now, In regards to Okung... I don't see it. I honestly do not see it in this guy. He is big with long arms... that's all I see. He doesn't push piles or drive his guys like great OT's do, or did in college. On run plays to his side he doesn't drive his guy he runs lateral with them which isnt what you want to do, you kill the edge for your RB. On passing plays i think he will have trouble getting beat inside. I doubt anyone can bullrush the guy, but he will get his ass eat up with speed rushers... that's just my thoughts on him. If I'm taking an OT #2 overall he better be in the Boseli, Ogden, Pace, or Walter Jones mold or it's a complete waste and Okung is not of that mold.

Now, if we could pick up Berry #2 and get Terrence Cody with our 2nd round pick, that would be huge for our defense, I think Cody might fall out of the First round. OR there are some decent guard prospects coming out this year aswell with our 2nd round pick.

My ideal thing to happen would be to sign Berry, get Big Fatass back from Cleveland and take BPA at a need position with our 2nd, most likely a guard, but I would be ok with a CB or DE in the mix aswell. OR get Cody also and have our DT's set, our Safeties set, our LB's set... then we can focus on DE's and Corners either in later rounds or the following years draft. If they don't score we have a chance should be my new motto.

[Huntermsu]

I am not sold on McCoy being a elite DT prospect.

I would take Berry because I believe Suh will not be available to us at #2. If Suh were available I would take him. Granted this is VERY early in this process and after watching more and more tapes/videos of guys coming out and we have no idea what the player agreement situation is alot can happen over the course of the next 3-4 months. FA's are another factor, who can we land?

Now, In regards to Okung... I don't see it. I honestly do not see it in this guy. He is big with long arms... that's all I see. He doesn't push piles or drive his guys like great OT's do, or did in college. On run plays to his side he doesn't drive his guy he runs lateral with them which isnt what you want to do, you kill the edge for your RB. On passing plays i think he will have trouble getting beat inside. I doubt anyone can bullrush the guy, but he will get his ass eat up with speed rushers... that's just my thoughts on him. If I'm taking an OT #2 overall he better be in the Boseli, Ogden, Pace, or Walter Jones mold or it's a complete waste and Okung is not of that mold.

Now, if we could pick up Berry #2 and get Terrence Cody with our 2nd round pick, that would be huge for our defense, I think Cody might fall out of the First round. OR there are some decent guard prospects coming out this year aswell with our 2nd round pick.

My ideal thing to happen would be to sign Berry, get Big Fatass back from Cleveland and take BPA at a need position with our 2nd, most likely a guard, but I would be ok with a CB or DE in the mix aswell. OR get Cody also and have our DT's set, our Safeties set, our LB's set... then we can focus on DE's and Corners either in later rounds or the following years draft. If they don't score we have a chance should be my new motto.

Wow, i pretty much completely agree.

[Felix]

The only problem I have...I dont consider Cody or Sammie Hill pass rushing DTs...they are wide bodies that would be great at stopping the run and eating up space, but I think the biggest weakness is no interior pressure....I know you addressed it with SRog, but I dont see it happening, so I am just looking at who's on the roster and who can be obtained....

[def]

We need to trade down. We need Berry at 6 if we can swing a deal with Seattle. We give up #2 for their #6 and #14. WE also give them a third rounder.

With #6 we take Berry and with #14 we take SPiller. Look we need a RB. All plyoff teams have a solid there. K Smith is not.

Second round we go after best DE...get O line in FA.. no other way to improve?

[Huntermsu]

Originally Posted by def

We need to trade down. We need Berry at 6 if we can swing a deal with Seattle. We give up #2 for their #6 and #14. WE also give them a third rounder.

With #6 we take Berry and with #14 we take SPiller. Look we need a RB. All plyoff teams have a solid there. K Smith is not.

Second round we go after best DE...get O line in FA.. no other way to improve?

If they could swing that deal i would take back most any bad thing i have said about Mayhew, we get Berry, Spiller, and still have the #34 pick, wow.

[millenbacker]

I agree with almost all the arguments. I don't want Okung at all but he is a very possible top 5 pick so he needs to be considered. I'm not high on Suh. As good as he is the OL in the pros are a lot bigger than 90% of what he faced in college and he won't be as dominant. Same for McCoy. I'd like Berry and then go after a top DE or Cody. I would not mind Best. I think he will be the better of the RB's coming out.
We have DeVries coming back, so that will be a solid DE. Draft a DE for other side, move Avril to LB.

Solid draft would be for us to get:
Before you laugh look at it like this: We have several players who are tradable. Sims, White, Goz, Dizon, Fluellen, both Cohens. All backups who would be looked at strongly by other teams. Pair them up with late round picks to move up and we can get these guys:

Berry
Haden
McCoy
Best
then go after OG

LOL.

MB

[goldenlions]

I think I will wait until at least the combine and proday and see who the Rams are hung up on before declaring anyone. But as of Jan. 23rd, 2009, I want Suh.

The only way a tradedown could happens is if the Rams pass on Suh and there are a couple of suitors desperate for him.

[Texan4Lions]

Originally Posted by Huntermsu

I am not sold on McCoy being a elite DT prospect.



Wow, i pretty much completely agree.

Your right, I completely forgot about McCoy... and, as usual (lol, this shit is starting to get scary how much we agree over the past 3-4 years, EVERY year) I agree with Hunter. I don't see McCoy being more then an above average DT in the pro's. Even if you just watch his youtube highlights most of his plays come from coverage and the pocket eventually breaking down. He would basically be what we have here already, perhaps a bit better.

[badnews3123]

The thing you consistently hear about McCoy is that he has an extemely quick burst and wreaks havoc in the backfield. I've seen this watching the games and you can see it in the highlights I posted in the other topic. If there's any criticism you hear conisistently it's that he overruns the play because he gets through the line so quickly which can open things up in the run game. McCoy and Suh are both considered elite prospects universally, I really don't see how McCoy would only be a slight upgrade over Jackson, Hill, Cohen, and Fluellen.

[LionNation]

They say that McCoy is the better pass rusher between the two (Suh). This is what the Lions are sorely lacking, a DT who can create havoc in the backfield.

I still prefer Suh as i think he is the complete package but i won't be disappointed if they end up with McCoy at all.

As far as Berry or Okung go you can forget that happening. Its between these two guys and one of them will be a Lion next year.

[Huntermsu]

What worries me about McCoy is he seems to be a one trick pony, he relies on his speed and quickness, how many 4-3 DTs that rely on speed and quickness end up elite in the NFL?, Jovan Haye and Chris Hovan have been nice players but i wouldnt call them elite, Warren Sapp was elite but he had more size and strength to go with the quickness. I dont know but i have visions of Shaun Cody when i think of Gerald McCoy.

[LAW]

I don't understand all this Berry love, no way can we take another S that early in the draft.

[K-Dawg]

Originally Posted by def

We need to trade down. We need Berry at 6 if we can swing a deal with Seattle. We give up #2 for their #6 and #14. WE also give them a third rounder.

With #6 we take Berry and with #14 we take SPiller. Look we need a RB. All plyoff teams have a solid there. K Smith is not.

Second round we go after best DE...get O line in FA.. no other way to improve?

This is what you hope for if you want to get Berry.

IMO, I would like to trade down with Seattle also, I just dunno if it's possible.

I also dunno if I like taking Spiller at 14. I'd consider who was there at DE, DT, OT, and CB before lookin at Spiller. I wouldn't mind waiting to try for a guy like Gerhardt later on.

Personally...I don't think adding another safety would improve the Lions as much as grabbing a CB, DT, DE, OT, or RB. I think part of that is going to be dictated by what the Lions do in FA, if anything.

[badnews3123]

Originally Posted by LAW

I don't understand all this Berry love, no way can we take another S that early in the draft.

Because he's arguably the best player in the draft and is compared to Ed Reed. He also has the ability to play corner. I don't really endorse him at #2, but if they moved back a couple spots in the draft, he'd be head and shoulders the best player available.

[LAW]

Originally Posted by badnews3123

Because he's arguably the best player in the draft and is compared to Ed Reed. He also has the ability to play corner. I don't really endorse him at #2, but if they moved back a couple spots in the draft, he'd be head and shoulders the best player available.

Every year a S is compared to Ed Reed. With such a high pick invested in Delmas, I can't imagine taking another S so high.

[badnews3123]

I haven't heard comparisons to Ed Reed for anybody.

The last safety to have a big buzz around him was Laron Landry and I don't remember him getting the Ed Reed comparison.

Eric Berry's a rare talent because of his ability and his versatility to play both S and CB. At 2 I don't see it happening because Suh or McCoy will be there and those guys are both elite DT's, but if they moved back a few spot. I'd much rather have him than Derrick Morgan or Joe Haden. The secondary is terrible and they may have used a second round pick on Delmas, but he's the only viable starter they have in the secondary.

[LAW]

Originally Posted by badnews3123

I haven't heard comparisons to Ed Reed for anybody.

Seriously? Not trying to put you down, but do you normally follow the drafts?

[badnews3123]

Originally Posted by LAW

Seriously? Not trying to put you down, but do you normally follow the drafts?

There hasn't been a high first round pick at safety since Landry. I don't think they're calling 2nd round safetys Ed Reed types or they wouldn't make it to the second. Kenny Phillips and Merritweather weren't compared to him. Landry wasn't. Huff wasn't. So who was? We're talking people saying he should be on an Ed Reed level, not he does some things similar to Ed Reed.

[LAW]

Kenny Phillips was indeed compared to Ed Reed -

"The coaching staff called Phillips a player with the build of Sean Taylor and the knowledge and quickness of Ed Reed. With that combination, along with physical play that could rival that of any Hurricane linebacker, NFL scouts took notice."

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/...illips?id=1375

So we have in 2008 Phillips, in 2007 Landry, in 2006 Huff, do I need to go on?


"The former Texas Longhorn was supposed to be the next Ed Reed coming out of college."

http://www.realfootball365.com/articles/raiders/13626
http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/tex/gra..._for_draft.pdf

[badnews3123]

Ok, well you gave me one and obviously not everyone thought he was a combo of Sean Taylor and Ed Reed since he almost fell out of the first round. Berry won't go out of the top 10 probably top 5.

And that was the Miaimi coaching staff that compared him.

[LAW]

While researching, I stumbled upon this (interesting Reed):

Eric "the Hype" Berry by Mark Jones II
Mark Jones IIContributor

.
Contributor Written on December 21, 2009

I am going to make several points today so please read this completely. A professional sports scout is in the realm of professions like that of a weather person or fortune teller where they can be consistently wrong and yet show up to work again and again and still receive a paycheck. Any job where you speculate in prospect or potential has a high percentage of failure. Those who delve in this game of guesswork, try to present their analysis in positive words on objects they like and downgrade objects they don't like. They use comparisons to known quantities, which is completely unfair to the unknown quantity. For example, I've often heard Eric Berry is a ball hawk like Ed Reed or Troy Palomau or is similar to Sean Taylor. No offense to Eric Berry but, Ed Reed and Troy Palomau are perennial All Pros who play on fantastic defenses with other great ensemble players who also make consistent Pro Bowls. If the draft speculators are correct and a team with a poor defense drafts Berry extremely early then the odds of Berry making the Pro Bowl or displaying his true potential will be significantly reduced because he will not be on a team with pro bowl caliber players.



Currently the teams at the bottom of the NFL rankings in total defense are Detroit, St. Louis, Tampa Bay and Kansas City. It just so happens those teams are ranked at the bottom of the spectrum in pass defense. It doesn't help that these teams just hired new head coaches this year. So the commentators and the draftniks would make the obvious claim that those bad teams need significant help in the secondary. Bad move and poor team analysis. Let's take Tampa Bay for example. In 2008, with the same players on the 2009 secondary, Tampa Bay finished near the top of the league in pass defense. So how can the draftnicks look at this and say Tampa needs secondary help? If they looked a little closer they would have seen in 2008, the Tampa Bay defense against the RUN was also tops in the league yet, in 2009 they are bordering on being last against the RUN. Why such a drastic difference...They lost long time Defensive Coordinator and now current Tennessee Defensive Coordinator Monty Kiffin and then they lost Linebackers Derrick Brooks and Cato June both of whom played on super bowl winning teams, excelled at their positions and were replaced by Geno Hayes and other NFL journeymen. So why draft secondary when your obvious problem lies in your linebackers, line play and coaching. The secondary is fine, but the players upfront need to be addressed in Tampa Bay. Adding a secondary player will not help especially if that player cannot tackle a large NFL running back.

The great Bill Parcells provides an analytical approach to creating what makes a prototypical NFL safety. http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/...ast&id=3041425

Ideal height and weight- 6'0 3/8 inches 206 lbs
Ideal 40m- 4.53 40
Parcells says these are things they must have


1. FBI- Football Instincts. Quick reacter.

2. Toughness & competitiveness

3. Tackling & run support

4. Good ball skills

5. Have to be able to cover 1 on 1 in short spaces such as the red zone. Can't hide them there

6. Have to be able to cover the TE

7. Have to be the QB of the secondary

Must have these skills or characteristics

-Be able to read keys
-React
-Have catch up speed
-Burst to close
-Ball reaction
-Hands
-Man coverage
-Good zone reaction


3rd down defenses are faced with a dilemma......

Are they (SS) big enough to move into the box

Normally are key special teams guys


Unfortunately, Berry lacks a lot of what is on Parcell's' list. Berry has regressed this year in his tackling and certainly falls far short of zone reaction and man coverage. Watch the Ole Miss video I provided.

No matter how much logic or objectivity you try to impart to the know it all fans or teams to address the team needs somehow, someway the bottom dwelling team’s Front Office listen to their scouts and the NFL commentators, and seem hell bent on drafting a rookie who has 0 experience covering a NFL player in game, is physically unable to properly perform the needed duties of the job, is over hyped and under analyzed, never experienced the speed of the NFL game and never digested or reacted to the varying offenses and NFL in-game changes. Granted every rookie faces those tasks but to ask a rookie to help a team with significant flaws is a task for a veteran free agent defensive back to answer. The responsibility is too much to impart to a soon to be rookie in Berry that is overhyped, under analyzed and not an NFL safety.

Sometimes, those who are close to the situation know best. Charles Davis, Fox BCS Analyst, Former Tennessee Volunteer Defensive Back, NFL Network Analyst, commented on Eric Berry's future as a NFL Safety; "As far as Eric Berry - don't be surprised if he's a pro Cornerback.....as opposed to a pro Safety." Davis goes on to add, "He's got the build to play corner, he's got the feet to play corner, and he could very well follow in the same footsteps as a former Tennennesse All-American Safety by the name of Dale Carter, who became an All-Pro Corner."



Yet, when you read or hear any ESPN commentator, the discussion starts with Eric Berry is the next Ed Reed or Sean Taylor, He has this or that, Can do this or that. That was last year and his freshman year when he racked up double digit INT's and made big plays that made him a known quantity on the college football scene in the SEC.

This year, the over hyped Berry who won the Jim Thorpe Award, for the Nation's top Defensive Back has reminded me of former over hyped Former Missouri Safety William Moore who had a breakout All American early career at Missouri and then in his final year was exposed as a being not as good as the prognosticators thought. Berry's performance in the new Tennessee Defense run by long time NFL defensive coach Monty Kiffin has not been nearly top notch in the nation for the defensive back to be awarded the Thorpe Award. He did not lead the nation in INT's or tackles; at times he was not even the best defensive back on his team. For reference on Berry's poor performance in 2009 read this article. http://seahawksdraft.blogspot.com/20...ver-rated.html



CBSsports.com provides a snippet of Berry's performance in a game versus Auburn. 10/04/2009 - SEASON RECAP: Auburn 26, Tennessee 22 - The volunteers gave up 459 total yards and had eight 3-and-outs on offense as they lost their SEC home opener to the Tigers. SS Eric Berry notched 14 tackles, but by his standards, didn't have a great game. Berry missed a handful of tackles and was plowed by Auburn's Ben Tate on a second quarter run for a first down.



If you want to see evidence of the hit from Ben Tate, it is contained on this website. http://www.3sib.com/2009/10/06/eric-...breaking-news/ watch as Eric Berry's poor skill to engage the tackler causes him to be leveled. It raises an interesting question on how scouts remark and rave on Berry's ability to tackle. Do they really watch games or just repeat what they have heard or seen in clips.



By the way after the Auburn game, Tennessee dropped its Heisman Campaign for Berry rather quickly when it realized that he was more hype than good. For reference read here...http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...paign-skidding



Now, I present this video of Tennessee vs. Ole Miss, for further edification on Berry's poor performance and inability to play the safety position. The video speaks for itself. I implore you to watch all 5:15 minutes of the game. Watch how he does not break down to tackle the on coming runner, watch how he gets pushed around by much larger players blocking downfield. There are markers to signify where Berry is on the field. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISPX3lEUKFE



After the game the Ole Miss running back had this to say about Berry, "When I cut, I landed on (offensive guard John Jerry)," McCluster said. "It caught my balance. After that, it was one man to beat. I made a move and had two blockers. It was a lot of field. I saw No. 14 (Eric) Berry coming. I was looking dead in his eyes because I knew I was going to set him up. And I just burst to the sideline, one cut and he missed. I saw two defenders and I wasn't going to go down. They called me small all game. They hit me, and I came up a little short." http://olemiss.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1016073



Even Bruce Feldman of ESPN, who loves Berry and has been comparing him to NFL pro bowlers, tweeted about Berry's performance in the Ole Miss game



"McCluster even having Eric Berry grabbing at air today."



BFeldmanESPN (Bruce Feldman)

14 November 2009, 1:35 pm



Finally, if you were an NFL GM or team in need, you should or would be leery of drafting a player like this. Evaluate your actual team needs and deficiencies. Evaluate your current roster and past performance. Be analytical. Do not be old fashion with drafting the best player available idea. Then again if you listen to the hype and want to feel good for a few big plays and cost your team significant dollars next year, and waste a top draft pick go ahead and select Berry. Put your franchise back a few more years.

In all honesty, Berry will be drafted early by someone. Someone will believe that the kid will fit into their system as a game changer. And for those who liken Eric Berry to Ed Reed be forewarned, although ESPN and commentators remark on how great Ed Reed is don't forget he gives up the big play more often than not.

In 2008, Ed Reed and the Ravens gave up:
(6) 40+ yard passing plays
(41) 20+ yard passing plays

That's the same number of 40+ yard passing plays that the Steelers have allowed over the last two years. And the Steelers only allowed (23) 20+ yard passing plays this year.

In 2007, Ed Reed (who went to the Pro Bowl) and the Ravens allowed (15) 40+ yard passing plays?! Giving up the deep bomb almost every game is good enough for a Pro Bowl spot?

Isn't a free safety supposed to be the last line of defense and stop the big play? Ed Reed isn't playing the position as I understand it too well.

Instead of Defensive Player of the Year, Ed Reed should get the Flashiest Interception Returner of the Year. Also read, http://ravens24x7.blogspot.com/2009/...e-uuuuuuu.html

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...the-hype-berry

[LAW]

Originally Posted by badnews3123

Ok, well you gave me one and obviously not everyone thought he was a combo of Sean Taylor and Ed Reed since he almost fell out of the first round. Berry won't go out of the top 10 probably top 5.

And that was the Miaimi coaching staff that compared him.

What about Huff? And are you saying everyone thinks Berry is the next Reed?

[badnews3123]

Originally Posted by LAW

What about Huff? And are you saying everyone thinks Berry is the next Reed?

Sure, I don't remember the comparisons for Huff, but you have one. Berry is considered by a lot of people to be in the mold of Reed because of his versatility and playmaking. Of course no one is a sure thing, but if you ask me if the Lions move back a couple spots, would I take Berry over anyone not named Suh, McCoy, and possibly Okung and maybe Anthony Davis, then yes I would take him. I don't care if they drafted Delmas in the second last year.

[Vic Turner]

Two good S are good, but who is going to stop the run and rush the QB?

Same rule applies, need to bolster the trenches!