Obama not a Natural Born Citizen??

[LionNation]

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[TechLion]

I've been listening about this on the radio for the last few days. I can not believe the media hasn't picked up on this at all. All that yahoo has to do is show his birth certificate to the authorities, if he is in fact was born in Hawaii. I really believe his is not a natural born citizen and if he gets away with this our Constitution isn't worth a mother f@#king thing. It's bad enough that the majority of the people in this country is supporting a communist they know nothing about but if he gets away with this I hope we have a revolution in America!

[deat25]

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/has_obamas_birth_certificate_been_disclosed.html


Q: Has Obama's birth certificate been disclosed?
Is Barack Obama a "natural-born citizen"? It is hard to believe he could get this far in the electoral process and not have a sufficient answer to this question, I admit, but has his birth certificate been disclosed?



A: Yes. His campaign made a copy public after speculation by conservative bloggers that he might not be a "natural-born citizen."
We asked for and received a copy from the Obama campaign. It is too large to display full size on this page, but you may

click on this link

http://cdn.factcheck.org/imagefiles/Ask%20FactCheck%20Images/Obama%20Birth%20Certificate/BO%20Birth%20Certificate.jpg

to see a copy of the document just as we received it.

It indicates Obama was born at 7:24 p.m. Aug. 4, 1961, in Honolulu. That should be no surprise, as it merely documents what Obama and his biographers have always said. But the document should put to rest groundless speculation raised on some conservative Web sites that Obama might not have been born in the U.S. and therefore might not qualify under the Constitution as a "natural-born citizen" to be president.

The speculation was not based on any evidence. Bloggers raised questions based on the absence of evidence, specifically the lack of a publicly available copy of a birth certificate and the supposed "secrecy" surrounding it. For example, the conservative World Net Daily posted a June 10 article with the headline, "Is Obama's candidacy constitutional?; Secrecy over birth certificate, demand for 'natural-born' citizenship cited." Soon after, some of our readers began asking us the same thing.

The "secrecy" ended when Tommy Vietor at the Obama campaign sent a message to us and other reporters saying, "I know there have been some rumors spreading about Obama’s citizenship, so I wanted to make sure you all had a copy of his birth certificate." A digital image was attached.

Hawaii state law forbids the release of birth or marriage certificates to anyone but the persons named in the documents or their immediate relatives. This copy carries a date stamp of "Jun 6 - 2007" (which has bled through from the reverse side), and is, therefore, probably a copy obtained by Obama himself at that time.

Incidentally, John McCain has been the subject of similar speculation based on the fact that he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. But as we explained in an earlier Ask FactCheck, he's also a U.S. citizen under laws going back to 1790, even though he wasn't born in the country.

[Texan4Lions]

All of this comes out and he has to go visit his ailing grandmother, in HAWAII? Alone, without his family... why wouldn't you take your children and wife to HAWAII to see their "sick" grandmother for what may be her final days?

WAKE UP he went to HAWAII to try and find a birth certificate, get one made or forged!

This smells fishy and badly. If you haven't heard what that guy had to say with the lawsuit. He gives 5 different angles as to why Obama could not be president. Not just not being born in Hawaii.

The one he has on his website is a fake. You can tell by looking at the listing for Obama's faher as African... in 1962 the put "NEGRO" on birth certificates and not African... almost had us... but ya sliped up in the end, Obama!

[Huntermsu]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jvhtmoNEnyP1Bu6Ol4zJsN94mlewD941NCJG0

Judge tosses lawsuit challenging Obama citizenship
1 day ago

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — A federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit challenging Barack Obama's qualifications to be president.

U.S. District Judge R. Barclay Surrick on Friday night rejected the suit by attorney Philip J. Berg, who alleged that Obama was not a U.S. citizen and therefore ineligible for the presidency. Berg claimed that Obama is either a citizen of his father's native Kenya or became a citizen of Indonesia after he moved there as a boy.

Obama was born in Hawaii to an American mother and a Kenyan father. His parents divorced and his mother married an Indonesian man.

Internet-fueled conspiracy theories question whether Obama is a "natural-born citizen" as required by the Constitution for a presidential candidate and whether he lost his citizenship while living abroad.

Surrick ruled that Berg lacked standing to bring the case, saying any harm from an allegedly ineligible candidate was "too vague and its effects too attenuated to confer standing on any and all voters."


Ok normally i would just dismiss this, but the fact that he doesnt just supply the documents puzzles me, at the same time how could Obama get this far without having to supply any documents.

[Huntermsu]

Ok having read some of the Judges comments on the ruling i have to ask the question, if a regular U.S. citizen has no standing to ask Obama to produce documents to ensure he is acting within the Constitution, who the hell does?.

I started reading this thread thinking that it was something easily disproven, its not since Obama wont produce the birth cert. and there have been no explanations about the years he went to school in Indonesia.

[TechLion]

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/has_obamas_birth_certificate_been_disclosed.html


Q: Has Obama's birth certificate been disclosed?
Is Barack Obama a "natural-born citizen"? It is hard to believe he could get this far in the electoral process and not have a sufficient answer to this question, I admit, but has his birth certificate been disclosed?



A: Yes. His campaign made a copy public after speculation by conservative bloggers that he might not be a "natural-born citizen."
We asked for and received a copy from the Obama campaign. It is too large to display full size on this page, but you may

click on this link

http://cdn.factcheck.org/imagefiles/Ask%20FactCheck%20Images/Obama%20Birth%20Certificate/BO%20Birth%20Certificate.jpg

to see a copy of the document just as we received it.

It indicates Obama was born at 7:24 p.m. Aug. 4, 1961, in Honolulu. That should be no surprise, as it merely documents what Obama and his biographers have always said. But the document should put to rest groundless speculation raised on some conservative Web sites that Obama might not have been born in the U.S. and therefore might not qualify under the Constitution as a "natural-born citizen" to be president.

The speculation was not based on any evidence. Bloggers raised questions based on the absence of evidence, specifically the lack of a publicly available copy of a birth certificate and the supposed "secrecy" surrounding it. For example, the conservative World Net Daily posted a June 10 article with the headline, "Is Obama's candidacy constitutional?; Secrecy over birth certificate, demand for 'natural-born' citizenship cited." Soon after, some of our readers began asking us the same thing.

The "secrecy" ended when Tommy Vietor at the Obama campaign sent a message to us and other reporters saying, "I know there have been some rumors spreading about Obama’s citizenship, so I wanted to make sure you all had a copy of his birth certificate." A digital image was attached.

Hawaii state law forbids the release of birth or marriage certificates to anyone but the persons named in the documents or their immediate relatives. This copy carries a date stamp of "Jun 6 - 2007" (which has bled through from the reverse side), and is, therefore, probably a copy obtained by Obama himself at that time.

Incidentally, John McCain has been the subject of similar speculation based on the fact that he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. But as we explained in an earlier Ask FactCheck, he's also a U.S. citizen under laws going back to 1790, even though he wasn't born in the country.

Their are several other video's with even more proof that his birth certificate is a fake.

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[Blog]

How the hell does one become a Senator without a birth certificate?

[Huntermsu]

Well its pretty clear its not a original copy of the birth certificate, thats for sure, maybe the original was lost and a new one was produced?.

Also to be fair the same lawsuit was brought against McCain and it was also dismissed, the idea is that only the Congress can force a potential president to prove his natural born status.

[TechLion]

Well its pretty clear its not a original copy of the birth certificate, thats for sure, maybe the original was lost and a new one was produced?.

Also to be fair the same lawsuit was brought against McCain and it was also dismissed, the idea is that only the Congress can force a potential president to prove his natural born status.

One big difference is that McCain turned over his medical records and birth certificate in order to get the case dismissed. Also McCains grandma didn't come out and say he was born in Brazil and not on a base in Panama.

[TechLion]

I wonder how sick his grandmother really is.

Obama Birth Certificate Issue Goes to Hawaii Supreme Court
October 23, 2008 05:09 PM EDT
views: 11944 | comments: 102
Brian Cherry, writing for The New Media Journal, says "The question regarding Barack Obama's eligibility to run for President based on questions regarding his status as natural born United States citizen has reached the Hawaiian Supreme Court."

Andy Martin, an Illinois journalist and Democrat, has petitioned the court to expedite the release of Obama's birth records so that the issue can be put to rest once and for all. Cherry writes, "For months there has been speculation about Barack's birth status among other issues associated with his birth certificate. This has been helped along by the campaign's reluctance to produce uncontestable records of the Senators birth and status as a natural born citizen of the United States. When the Obama campaign did release a scan of Obama's birth certificate its noticeable lack of an embossed seal among other inconsistencies with proper Hawaiian birth certificates simply fueled the speculation of critics."

Now, it's no secret that I'm anti-Obama and that I would love to see John McCain win the presidency on November 4. But this particular issue has always struck me as kind of strange. The first question that pops into my head is, "Isn't there a process for determining eligibility as soon as someone files the paperwork to become a candidate?" Wouldn't this responsibility fall on the shoulders of the FEC?

Mr. Cherry contributes to the continued speculation about the birth certificate, saying, "Presidential candidate Barack Obama has also indirectly interjected himself into the situation. During the same week that Mr. Martin's request was made to the Hawaiian Supreme court, Barack is suspending his campaign for a few days in order to visit his sick grandmother in Hawaii. Unnamed sources claim that he is bringing along a team of lawyers on this visit to an ailing relative. The Obama campaign has not yet answered our query regarding whether Barack has brought a legal team with him to Hawaii."

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if he brought lawyers with him. We're less than two weeks out from an election and I imagine every word he utters and every action he takes is based on legal advice.

Politifact.com, a fact check web site, says, "Unlike other documents, Hawaii birth certificates aren't public record. Only family members can request copies, so when the campaign declined to give us one, we were stalled." After the Obama campaign released a copy of the birth certificate, however, Politifact says they went a step further: "We e-mailed it to the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records, to ask if it was real. ‘It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,' spokesman Janice Okubo told us." Still, questions persisted.

Politifact says, "When the official documents were questioned, we went looking for more answers." "If this document is forged," Politifact says, "a U.S. senator and his presidential campaign have perpetrated a vast, long-term fraud. They have done it with conspiring officials at the Hawaii Department of Health, the Cook County (ILL.) Bureau of Vital Statistics, the Illinois Secretary of State's office, the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois and many other government agencies."

There are plenty of things about Senator Obama that concern me, but his birth certificate is not one of them.

[LionNation]

Would be nice if this thing took hold and swayed a lot of votes in McCains favor come election day. The liberal media will not pick up this story. I haven't watched FOX news in awhile, hopefully they start to talk about it soon.

Obama says he was born in a certain hospital in Hawaii but his sister says its the other hospital there. His grandmother and half brother and sister say he was born in Kenya. Well somebody is lying and i bet its Obama.

[Blog]

If he travels to Kenya he must have a Passport? If one has a Passport then he must supply a birth certificate?

[deat25]

The article from The New Media Journal uses research from Politico.com, but the author misrepresents the results of the research:


When the official documents were questioned, we went looking for more answers. We circled back to the Department of Health, had a newsroom colleague bring in her own Hawaii birth certificate to see if it looks the same (it’s identical). But every answer triggered more questions.

And soon enough, after going to every length possible to confirm the birth certificate’s authenticity, you start asking, what is reasonable here?

Because if this document is forged, then they all are.

If this document is forged, a U.S. senator and his presidential campaign have perpetrated a vast, long-term fraud. They have done it with conspiring officials at the Hawaii Department of Health, the Cook County (Ill.) Bureau of Vital Statistics, the Illinois Secretary of State’s office, the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois and many other government agencies.

Sounds like a Vince Flynn novel.


• • •
Peter Goelz knows a little something about conspiracy theorists.

He was managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board in 1996 when TWA Flight 800 crashed off Long Island, killing 230 people. While the NTSB’s investigation found no evidence of sabotage or terrorism, the Internet was stocked with insistent accusations.

“We were right at the beginning of this Internet lunacy,” Goelz said in an interview with PolitiFact. “And there were a variety of crackpot Web sites and Web commentators that generated all sorts of rumors. The principle one was that TWA in fact was shot down by an errant Navy missile in ... a live-fire exercise off the Hamptons.”

Nine miles off Long Island, in the middle of summer. And then a full-scale coverup by the Navy and all the sailors involved.

“I am sure that we spent another $10-million, perhaps $20-million, out of a $50-million investigation, to just knock down and put to bed these kinds of rumors, these insidious rumors,” Goelz said. “We felt like we had to answer every question because it was such a public and dreadful and confounding event.”

Goelz, who is now a communications consultant in Washington, D.C., says the Internet has given a platform to anyone to say anything. And a way to find others who want to hear it.

“Online, they can be almost anything,” he said. “They can be the crusading investigators that they always wanted to be.”


• • •
The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama’s birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said.

“I guess the big issue that’s being raised is the lack of an embossed seal and a signature,” Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. “Because they scanned the front … you wouldn’t see those things.”

Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received.

And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? “When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the embossed image through it.”

Still, she acknowledges: “I don’t know that it’s possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents.”


• • •
And there’s the rub. It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world’s biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything’s possible.

But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what’s reasonable has to take over.

There is not one shred of evidence to disprove PolitiFact’s conclusion that the candidate’s name is Barack Hussein Obama, or to support allegations that the birth certificate he released isn’t authentic.

And that’s true no matter how many people cling to some hint of doubt and use the Internet to fuel their innate sense of distrust.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/




If you choose to not believe the conclusion of the watchdog website then that is your choice but don't be confused by the article into believing that politico.com's research supports the fake birth certificate theory.

[Texan4Lions]

If he travels to Kenya he must have a Passport? If one has a Passport then he must supply a birth certificate?


In 1981 Obama travelled to Pakistan at a time when Americans were not allowed in Pakistan. Here's the real kicker... he was using his INDONESIAN PASSPORT. YOU HAVE TO BE A CITIZEN OF A COUNTRY TO HAVE A PASSPORT FROM THEM! So, what does that tell us? Just another reason why he can not become President.

So, now this leads us to this question, Did Obama file for citizenship upon entering the US? Because he had to be an INDONESION citizen for his passport... which there is no record of him doing under the name Barry Soerteo or Barak Obama. Which means: WE HAVE AN ILLEGAL ALIEN IN OUR GOVERNMENT! Holy hell what's next? Maybe Putin wants to strut over and run for Prez?

BARAK OBAMA IS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN!

So screw the birth certificate.. this is WAY worse.

[TechLion]

If he travels to Kenya he must have a Passport? If one has a Passport then he must supply a birth certificate?


First of all Texan is correct, if he had an Indonisian passport, he gave up his US citizenship. Indonisia didn't have dual citenship at the time his father made him a citizen of Indonisa.

Also, you do not have to have a birth certificate to get a pass port. All you need is one of these.

Previously issued, undamaged U.S. Passport

Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state*

Consular Report of Birth Abroad or Certification of Birth

Naturalization Certificate

Certificate of Citizenship

Also he could have used a fake birth certificate. If he has nothing to hide, why doesn't he just give his birth certificate or medical records to the court? Something is fishy and it's not your girl friend Blog.

[goldenlions]

I am not familiar with what makes a person a natural born citizen. Does it require that you be born on American soil or just that one of your parents be an American citizen if you were born outside of the country?

[Texan4Lions]

I am not familiar with what makes a person a natural born citizen. Does it require that you be born on American soil or just that one of your parents be an American citizen if you were born outside of the country?

Thats what I'm trying to figure out now. His mother was an American at the time of the birth. I thought that cleared him to be an American. That is why I think the Indonesian passport is far far worse then the Birth Certificate. It is the one legal document that we have for him, that links him to another country. End of Story.

[TechLion]

Thats what I'm trying to figure out now. His mother was an American at the time of the birth. I thought that cleared him to be an American. That is why I think the Indonesian passport is far far worse then the Birth Certificate. It is the one legal document that we have for him, that links him to another country. End of Story.

I think if one of your parents is an American citizen and you were born in another country, your are a naturalized citizen and not a natural born citizen. The founding fathers did this so no President would have loyalties to other countries. I believe a natural born citizen must be born on American soil and the only exception would be a military base or an embassy.

[goldenlions]

Through birth abroad to one United States citizen

For persons born on or after November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:

1. One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born;

2. The citizen parent lived at least 5 years in the United States before his or her child's birth; and

3. At least 2 of these 5 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.*

A person's record of birth abroad, if registered with a U.S. consulate or embassy, is proof of his or her citizenship. Such a person may also apply for a passport or a Certificate of Citizenship to have a record of his or her citizenship. Such documentation is often useful to prove citizenship in lieu of the availability of an American birth certificate.

*If you were born before November 14, 1986, you are a citizen if your US citizen parent lived in the United States for at least 10 years and 5 of those years in the United States were after your citizen parent's 14th birthday.




I found this out. To me it sounds like regardless of whether he was born in Hawaii or not, proabably he is an American citizen. But the only thing that doesn't make sense is the Indoesnian passport. But then again, I am sure things like that can be bought and sold. Like much about Barry's life.

[Texan4Lions]

I think if one of your parents is an American citizen and you were born in another country, your are a naturalized citizen and not a natural born citizen. The founding fathers did this so no President would have loyalties to other countries. I believe a natural born citizen must be born on American soil and the only exception would be a military base or an embassy.


If this is true then it exempts BOTH of the current candidates from contention. Unless ofcourse if McCain was born on a military base in Panama. They were both born outside of the continental United States.

""Illegal aliens have been hopping the boarder while pregnant for years, Once they have their child in the States, their Child is considered an American citizxen and the Parents get to stay for free and file a duel citizenship.""

""- from what Golden posted, then that would be incorrect what I stated about illegals filing for duel citizenship. They can legally stay here with the child though, they just cant file for citizenship.

[LAW]

I think if one of your parents is an American citizen and you were born in another country, your are a naturalized citizen and not a natural born citizen. The founding fathers did this so no President would have loyalties to other countries. I believe a natural born citizen must be born on American soil and the only exception would be a military base or an embassy.

If you guys want to dig, dig into this, is McCain illegible to run for president?

I've heard some point to the Naturalization Act of 1790, but Naturalization Act of 1795 that repealed the Naturalization Act of 1790 and included only the phrase "shall be considered as citizens of the United States."

Based on what I've seen, McCain isn't a "natural-born citizen."

[goldenlions]

Lawyered.

[LAW]

If this is true then it exempts BOTH of the current candidates from contention. Unless ofcourse if McCain was born on a military base in Panama. They were both born outside of the continental United States.

Illegal aliens have been hopping the boarder while pregnant for years, Once they have their child in the States, their Child is considered an American citizxen and the Parents get to stay for free and file a duel citizenship.

McCain is a citizen, not an issue, the key question is if he is a "natural-born citizen." It should be noted that the Panama Canal Zone was leased to the United States and there is even further question if McCain was born on the base.

[LAW]

Speaking of lawyered: (interesting take)


In the most detailed examination yet of Senator John McCain’s eligibility to be president, a law professor at the University of Arizona has concluded that neither Mr. McCain’s birth in 1936 in the Panama Canal Zone nor the fact that his parents were American citizens is enough to satisfy the constitutional requirement that the president must be a “natural-born citizen.”

The analysis, by Prof. Gabriel J. Chin, focused on a 1937 law that has been largely overlooked in the debate over Mr. McCain’s eligibility to be president. The law conferred citizenship on children of American parents born in the Canal Zone after 1904, and it made John McCain a citizen just before his first birthday. But the law came too late, Professor Chin argued, to make Mr. McCain a natural-born citizen.

“It’s preposterous that a technicality like this can make a difference in an advanced democracy,” Professor Chin said. “But this is the constitutional text that we have.”

Several legal experts said that Professor Chin’s analysis was careful and plausible. But they added that nothing was very likely to follow from it.

“No court will get close to it, and everyone else is on board, so there’s a constitutional consensus, the merits of arguments such as this one aside,” said Peter J. Spiro, an authority on the law of citizenship at Temple University.

Mr. McCain has dismissed any suggestion that he does not meet the citizenship test.

In April, the Senate approved a nonbinding resolution declaring that Mr. McCain is eligible to be president. Its sponsors said the nation’s founders would have never intended to deny the presidency to the offspring of military personnel stationed out of the country.

A lawsuit challenging Mr. McCain’s qualifications is pending in the Federal District Court in Concord, N.H.

There are, Professor Chin argued in his analysis, only two ways to become a natural-born citizen. One, specified in the Constitution, is to be born in the United States. The other way is to be covered by a law enacted by Congress at the time of one’s birth.

Professor Chin wrote that simply being born in the Canal Zone did not satisfy the 14th Amendment, which says that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.”

A series of early-20th-century decisions known as the Insular Cases, he wrote, ruled that unincorporated territories acquired by the United States were not part of the nation for constitutional purposes. The Insular Cases did not directly address the Canal Zone. But the zone was generally considered an unincorporated territory before it was returned to Panama in 1999, and some people born in the Canal Zone when it was under American jurisdiction have been deported from the United States or convicted of being here illegally.

The second way Mr. McCain could have, and ultimately did, become a citizen was by statute, Professor Chin wrote. In Rogers v. Bellei in 1971, the Supreme Court said Congress had broad authority to decide whether and when children born to American citizens abroad are citizens.

At the time of Mr. McCain’s birth, the relevant law granted citizenship to any child born to an American parent “out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States.” Professor Chin said the term “limits and jurisdiction” left a crucial gap. The Canal Zone was beyond the limits of the United States but not beyond its jurisdiction, and thus the law did not apply to Mr. McCain.

In 1937, Congress addressed the problem, enacting a law that granted citizenship to people born in the Canal Zone after 1904. That made Mr. McCain a citizen, but not one who was naturally born, Professor Chin said, because the citizenship was conferred after his birth.

In his paper and in an interview, Professor Chin, a registered Democrat, said he had no political motive in raising the question.

In March, Laurence H. Tribe, a law professor at Harvard and an adviser to Senator Barack Obama, prepared a memorandum on these questions with Theodore B. Olson, a former solicitor general in the Bush administration. The memorandum concluded that Mr. McCain is a natural-born citizen based on the place of his birth, the citizenship of his parents and their service to the country.

In an interview on Thursday, Mr. Olson, whose firm represents Mr. McCain in the New Hampshire lawsuit, said Congress could not have intended to leave the gap described by Professor Chin. The 1937 law, Mr. Olson said, was not a fix but a way to clarify what Congress had meant all along.

Professor Tribe agreed. Reading the “limits and jurisdiction” clause as Professor Chin does, Professor Tribe said, “is to attribute a crazy design to Congress” that “would create an irrational gap.”

Brian Rogers, a McCain spokesman, said the campaign concurred and was confident Mr. McCain is eligible to serve.

In the motion to dismiss the New Hampshire suit, Mr. McCain’s lawyers said an individual citizen like the plaintiff, a Nashua man named Fred Hollander, lacks proof of direct injury and cannot sue.

Daniel P. Tokaji, an election law expert at Ohio State University, agreed. “It is awfully unlikely that a federal court would say that an individual voter has standing,” he said. “It is questionable whether anyone would have standing to raise that claim. You’d have to think a federal court would look for every possible way to avoid deciding the issue.”

Carl Hulse contributed reporting.

[TechLion]

If McCain is not a natural born citizen, none of are. On the other hand Obama could have been born in KENYA and could have renounced his citizenship by becoming an Indonesian citizen!!!!!! Lets not even compare the two.



Quote:
John McCain was born in 1936 at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone, Panama, to naval officer John S. McCain, Jr. (1911–1981) and Roberta (Wright) McCain (b. 1912).[2] At that time, the Panama Canal was under U.S. control.[3]

McCain has Scots-Irish, Anglo-Irish and English ancestry.[4] His father and his paternal grandfather both became four-star United States Navy admirals.[5] His family, including his older sister Sandy and younger brother Joe,[2] followed his father to various naval postings in the United States and the Pacific.[6] Altogether, he attended about 20 schools.[7]

In 1951, the family settled in Northern Virginia, and McCain attended Episcopal High School, a private preparatory boarding school in Alexandria.[8] He excelled at wrestling and graduated in 1954.[9]

Following in the footsteps of his father and grandfather, McCain entered the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis. There, he was a friend and informal leader for many of his classmates,[10] and sometimes stood up for targets of bullying.[5] He also became a lightweight boxer.[11] McCain came into conflict with higher-ranking personnel, he did not always obey the rules, and that contributed to a low class rank (894 of 899), despite a high IQ.[10][12] He did well in academic subjects that interested him, such as literature and history, but studied only enough to pass subjects he struggled with, such as mathematics.[5][13] McCain graduated in 1958.[10]

[LAW]

If McCain is not a natural born citizen, none of are.

I was born in Port Huron, Michigan. I am a natural born citizen. McCain is not.



John McCain was born in 1936 at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone, Panama, to naval officer John S. McCain, Jr. (1911–1981) and Roberta (Wright) McCain (b. 1912).[2] At that time, the Panama Canal was under U.S. control.[3]

Not sure of the source of this quote, but McCain's birth certificate actually lists Colon as the place of birth.

Reported copy of McCain's birth certificate:
http://panamajohn.dominates.us/articles/McCain_Certificate_1_1936x2.jpg

[TechLion]

I was born in Port Huron, Michigan. I am a natural born citizen. McCain is not.



Not sure of the source of this quote, but McCain's birth certificate actually lists Colon as the place of birth.

Reported copy of McCain's birth certificate:
http://panamajohn.dominates.us/articles/McCain_Certificate_1_1936x2.jpg


Colón, Panama
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is about the city in Panama. For the province, see Colón Province.
Colón


Colón
Coordinates: 9°20′N 79°54′W / 9.333, -79.9
Country Panama
Province Colón Province
Population (2000)
- Total 204,000
Colón is a sea port on the Caribbean Sea coast of Panama. The city lies near the Atlantic entrance to the Panama Canal. It is capital of Panama's Colón Province and has traditionally been known as Panama's second city. Colón was traditionally located entirely on Manzanillo Island, surrounded by Limon Bay, Manzanillo Bay and the Folks River. Since the disestablishment of the Canal Zone, the city's limits have been redefined to include the former Canal Zone towns of Cristobal, Rainbow City, Margarita, and Coco Solo, as well as the former U.S. Army base of Fort Gulick.

:bootyshake::sleepy2:

[LAW]

According to a State Department manual, U.S. military installations abroad cannot be considered "part of the United States" and "A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."

[LAW]

Colón is a sea port on the Caribbean Sea coast of Panama. The city lies near the Atlantic entrance to the Panama Canal. It is capital of Panama's Colón Province and has traditionally been known as Panama's second city. Colón was traditionally located entirely on Manzanillo Island, surrounded by Limon Bay, Manzanillo Bay and the Folks River. Since the disestablishment of the Canal Zone, the city's limits have been redefined to include the former Canal Zone towns of Cristobal, Rainbow City, Margarita, and Coco Solo, as well as the former U.S. Army base of Fort Gulick.

:bootyshake::sleepy2:


Did you read this before you posted this Tech? When was it "redefined" - before or after McCain's birth?

[goldenlions]

Well personally I think McCains citizenship is not in question. Why? Both parents are American citizen and he was born on a military base. Obama questions not as clear. I am an undecided, if I was voting for who do you think is more American....then I would vote for McCain. Only because he has a record of military service and Obama I never heard of since early 07. I am not the anti-Obama guy who thinks he is a Muslim and anti-American/Christ and will destroy this country. As far as I know, the President of the United States doesn't have the power to inflict injury on his own country. SInce he would be impeached. I think we will go moving along regardless of McCain or Obama. But the question is why there is a candidate on one side so overtly different than the other. The whole system is fucked. I can understand why some of those radical vote Libertian or some other candidate. It is too bad that this is what I am left to decide on.

For the Obamanation, you are wrong. For the McCainites, you are too. America needs a revolution and it won't be done by these guys. I just hope I live to see my old days, because I think we are in the midst of socialism and communism in the future. My parents and grandparents got to live in the best of our country and guess what, they fucked my future. God save our Children, and you know what, God just walked away.

[LAW]

Well personally I think McCains citizenship is not in question. Why? Both parents are American citizen and he was born on a military base.

I completely agree that McCain is a citizen, the question is whether he is a natural born citizen.

[LAW]

U.S. 'never had sovereignty' over Canal Zone
Besides, many legal scholars say the Canal Zone never was sovereign U.S. territory. In a February 1978 speech to the nation on the Panama Canal Treaty, heavily vetted by government lawyers, President Carter said, "We have never had sovereignty over it. We have only had the right to use it. The US Supreme Court and previous American presidents have repeatedly acknowledged the sovereignty of Panama over the Canal Zone."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23415028/

[TechLion]

Did you read this before you posted this Tech? When was it "redefined" - before or after McCain's birth?


Yes I did, but that doesn't mean that past births on military bases were not included. Anyway a judge dismissed the case against McCain because I am sure the evidence was clear that he was a Natural born citizen. As for Obama, this is still an on going case and unlike McCain he has not turned over his documents. Your reaching again Law! If I were a judge, I would throw you out of my court room.

[TechLion]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23415028/

That doesn't matter because he was on a military base. Think about it!!! If you were in the military and stationed by the government in Germany and had a child, of coarse that child has a right to be a natural born citizen. Case dismissed Law, you lost dude! Collect the money you ripped off from your client and find another sucker to represent!

[Texan4Lions]

The Second most offensive part of the deal... the lack of coverage this has by the liberal media.

A Man is on the verge of becoming the most powerful man in our country... and he isn't even a true citizen. Screw Natural born or not bullshit, this guy IS NOT EVEN AMERICAN! He is either KENYAN OR INDONESIAN! Absolutely unheard of!

I dont give a shit about political party... THIS IS A HUGE DEAL IN ITSELF regardless of political affiliation!

HOW CAN THIS NOT BE MAJOR NEWS??!?!?!?!?!?!

[LAW]

That doesn't matter because he was on a military base. Think about it!!! If you were in the military and stationed by the government in Germany and had a child, of coarse that child has a right to be a natural born citizen. Case dismissed Law, you lost dude! Collect the money you ripped off from your client and find another sucker to represent!

Which military base was he born on? His parents did not live on the base. I do not believe the Colon Hospital is part of the Coco Solo Naval Air Station and that Coco Solo did not have hospital that would deliver baby's at the time of McCain's birth.

Links:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=60931

Furthmore:
7 FAM 1116.1-4 Not Included in the Meaning of "In the United States"
(TL:CON-64; 11-30-95)
...
c. Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the
United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.


Hmm...looks like Tech was overturned on appeal.

[Texan4Lions]

Which military base was he born on? His parents did not live on the base. I do not believe the Colon Hospital is part of the Coco Solo Naval Air Station and that Coco Solo did not have hospital that would deliver baby's at the time of McCain's birth.

Links:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=60931

Furthmore:
7 FAM 1116.1-4 Not Included in the Meaning of "In the United States"
(TL:CON-64; 11-30-95)
...
c. Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the
United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.


Hmm...looks like Tech was overturned on appeal.

So, what's you take on Obama's situation, LAW?

Atleast McCain's parents were both citizens and abroad due to military activity. What's Obama's argument?

[LAW]

So, what's you take on Obama's situation, LAW?

Atleast McCain's parents were both citizens and abroad due to military activity. What's Obama's argument?

The at least does not make McCain a "natural born citizen, " which prohibits him from being president. If that is right or wrong due to McCain's obvious love for this country is irrelevant.

As for Obama, I don't know, haven't looked into like I did McCain because I found the law interesting in McCain's case.

I believe both parties want to sweep the issue under the rug. Another problem with a two party system.

[Texan4Lions]

The at least does not make McCain a "natural born citizen, " which prohibits him from being president. If that is right or wrong due to McCain's obvious love for this country is irrelevant.

As for Obama, I don't know, haven't looked into like I did McCain because I found the law interesting in McCain's case.

I believe both parties want to sweep the issue under the rug. Another problem with a two party system.


No, I agree with you and have said so in a previous post. I stated that "Then Neither one was viable to President". My point is, Obama's side of this has been continually ignored.

What I mean by "atleast" is he was born of American Parents. After re-reading my post(before you answered) I was almost inclined to go back and edit it, due to the wording, but decided not to. At the end of the day, if neither one of these guys fits the guidelines to be President then guess what... we find someone else who does.

I am just curious as to your take on Obama being an Illegal Alien. If you have a chance to look at it I would like to hear your opinion.

I'm more interested in Preserving our Constituion then I am for either one of these Candidates to win this election and not even be American.

[goldenlions]

The Constitution which I would hope is the be all, end all.....is nothing more than a piece of toilet paper.


As much as I want to be a Constituitonalist, I can't believe these guys had any idea that 2008 would live up to its hype. George Washington would roll over in his grave if he knew a slave was going to be president.

[Vic Turner]

The Constitution which I would hope is the be all, end all.....is nothing more than a piece of toilet paper.


As much as I want to be a Constituitonalist, I can't believe these guys had any idea that 2008 would live up to its hype. George Washington would roll over in his grave if he knew a slave was going to be president.

Wow

I have to disagree with you there! I'm sure he would be surprised but hopeful seeing how much of the black community has become productive citizens and assimilated into everyday society. Sure there are economic and social issues still with the AA community.

I think what would make him roll over in has grave is seeing how our government has consucted themselves the last 50 years! All that hard work and blood spilled by our fore fathers...the constitution has so many holes in it! I think all of our founding fathers would and should be ashamed! After WW2 we were the biggest and best up to now...that status is in jeopardy due to stupidity and greed!

[goldenlions]

Wow

I have to disagree with you there! I'm sure he would be surprised but hopeful seeing how much of the black community has become productive citizens and assimilated into everyday society. Sure there are economic and social issues still with the AA community.

I think what would make him roll over in has grave is seeing how our government has consucted themselves the last 50 years! All that hard work and blood spilled by our fore fathers...the constitution has so many holes in it! I think all of our founding fathers would and should be ashamed! After WW2 we were the biggest and best up to now...that status is in jeopardy due to stupidity and greed!


Seriously....seriously.....Far as I know GW never supported blacks rights. In fact he owned slaves. But that is not the problem, since besides the fact that the ideas of 1776 that would still be relavent today is minimal. Sure they had the best intentions but they never saw what the world has become. I like the ideas of the Constitutional Congress, but like many I believe to hold the ideals of those from over 200 years ago is shortsighted and really stupid. I mean if could have met anyone of our ancestors we would probably think of them as backwoods rednecks without any real intelligence.


My point in all of this is if they can't hold true to the Constitution then it is basically worth nothing more than TP and it is the opinion of myself that it is routinely used that way.

[Vic Turner]

Yeah the punched holes in the constitution and how our government operates. It's something different then they wanted and something I am sure they would not be happy with. We have basically become what they feared and tried to avoid.

[LAW]

I am just curious as to your take on Obama being an Illegal Alien. If you have a chance to look at it I would like to hear your opinion.



I'll take a look at this weekend and get back to you after I've formed an opinion.

[Huntermsu]

The at least does not make McCain a "natural born citizen, " which prohibits him from being president. If that is right or wrong due to McCain's obvious love for this country is irrelevant.

As for Obama, I don't know, haven't looked into like I did McCain because I found the law interesting in McCain's case.

I believe both parties want to sweep the issue under the rug. Another problem with a two party system.

I think there have been a few Supreme Court ruling on the question of natural born citizen status, one having to do with military bases, and also some on the parents legal status.

[Texan4Lions]

I think there have been a few Supreme Court ruling on the question of natural born citizen status, one having to do with military bases, and also some on the parents legal status.

I think so aswell. For some odd reason, I believed that if you were born on a military base, or atleast one of your parents was an American citizen, then that made you an American... The more I look into this the more this scares the shit outta me. Whoever gets elected could be impeached... wouldn't that put Biden or Palin in as POTUS? Oh shit!

[Blog]

Catching a black man lying, cheating or stealing...
....IS RACISM!

[Blog]

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[LAW]

I think so aswell. For some odd reason, I believed that if you were born on a military base, or atleast one of your parents was an American citizen, then that made you an American... The more I look into this the more this scares the shit outta me. Whoever gets elected could be impeached... wouldn't that put Biden or Palin in as POTUS? Oh shit!

There is a difference between citizen and natural-born citizen. I have no doubt that McCain is a citizen, but that isn't the question. As for the Supreme Court, I haven't examed the issue, but according to the NYT:

"But multiple experts and scholarly reviews say the issue has never been definitively resolved by either Congress or the Supreme Court."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

[LAW]

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I don't know what is more funny, the fact that Joe Wurzelbacher most likely would see a tax savings under Obama's plan or the fact McCain highlighed him at rally, asking him to stand up, only for Joe to have skipped it.

[bogartin]

Or that Obama's or McCain's plans won't affect the taxes that Joe pays... because he owes back taxes... for not paying them.

[LAW]

Or that Obama's or McCain's plans won't affect the taxes that Joe pays... because he owes back taxes... for not paying them.

Or the fact that Joe is not even a licensed plumber, didn't undergo apprenticeship training, and isn't licensed to work in Toledo, Sylvania, Maumee, or Perrysburg, with or without a licensed plumber alongside.

[Texan4Lions]

Or the fact that Joe is not even a licensed plumber, didn't undergo apprenticeship training, and isn't licensed to work in Toledo, Sylvania, Maumee, or Perrysburg, with or without a licensed plumber alongside.

How come this has become an attack on some average guy that has asked questions? Have we sunk that low? Seriously WTF does this have to do with Obama and McCain?

WHO GIVES A SHIT about some plumber?!?!?!?

[bogartin]

McCain seems to care a great deal about this plumber. I don't care about him as a person, but I care about him as a "representative". He is no longer an average day to day plumber... they don't need publisists and they don't travel to rallies with presidential nominees. "Joe the Plumber" is speaking with the "people"... and treated by the McCain group... as a representative of the campaign. He is now on record (on camera) as agreeing with an individual at a rally that a vote for Obama will mean the end of Isreal. It's just another case of McCain grasping at straws... and drawing the short one because "The Maverick" doesn't think ahead. He apparently didn't do enough research on Joe the Plumber to find out that he owes back taxes and isn't licensed before he started heralding his cause and basing a good portion of his debate and campaign around the man.

[LionNation]

McCain came right out and said he didn't agree with "Joe the Plumber" on a vote for Obama is a vote for the death of Israel.

Well election day is almost here. I feel there will be a major upset on election day. When it comes time to close the curtain and actually vote i see a lot of people actually choosing McCain. Could be wrong but we'll see Tuesday night.

[Texan4Lions]

McCain seems to care a great deal about this plumber. I don't care about him as a person, but I care about him as a "representative". He is no longer an average day to day plumber... they don't need publisists and they don't travel to rallies with presidential nominees. "Joe the Plumber" is speaking with the "people"... and treated by the McCain group... as a representative of the campaign. He is now on record (on camera) as agreeing with an individual at a rally that a vote for Obama will mean the end of Isreal. It's just another case of McCain grasping at straws... and drawing the short one because "The Maverick" doesn't think ahead. He apparently didn't do enough research on Joe the Plumber to find out that he owes back taxes and isn't licensed before he started heralding his cause and basing a good portion of his debate and campaign around the man.


It's funny how all this info about Joe the plumber can come out in a few days, but Obama's Birth Certifcate and School records are sealed tight, an unconsititutional for CITIZENS to question or ask for that information to be released... Hmmm .... does tha sound fair? One guy is running to be the leader of the country and we cant find out if he got student loans as an exchange student or what. Find out how he registered himself at school. Yet, if we want to discredit a simple plumber then THAT information can come out so quickly. That is absolutely disgusting.

[bogartin]

Maybe if McCain were not in a similar situation... we'd hear more from him about Obama's citizenship... and less about Joe the Plumber. OR... it's possible that there isn't a great deal of substance to the claim. I don't know why... but I do know that I hear McCain speak of Joe the Plumber a great deal more than I hear him speak of his opponent's citizenship. In fact, I don't recall him actually saying anything about it.

I'm curious, what does McCain's "jump first and look for the softest rock to fall on" decision making have to do with Obama's citizenship... since that's the topic you quoted from me?

[Blog]

I don't know what is more funny, the fact that Joe Wurzelbacher most likely would see a tax savings under Obama's plan or the fact McCain highlighed him at rally, asking him to stand up, only for Joe to have skipped it.

马桶：1、马桶：专业疏通各种型号马桶（抹布、塑料）等各种软硬物质所造成的堵塞。2、地漏： z专业疏 通各种v型、S型拐弯的地漏，北京朝阳区管道疏通（因为装修掉进水泥、沙子或头发等种原因所造 成的堵塞）。 3、墫坑：对于70年代至80年代初所建的楼房蹲坑，北京朝阳区管道疏通由于水质差的原因，时间一长，水垢 及尿碱堆积在管道里，造成下水慢、北京朝阳区管道疏通极易堵塞，本公司采用最佳技术方案专用疏通除垢机，全 面清理干净彻底疏通干净专业疏通各种型号马桶（抹布、 塑料）等各种软硬物质所造成的堵塞。2、地漏：专业疏通各种v型、S型拐弯的地漏，（北京朝阳区管道疏通因 为装修掉进水泥、沙子或头发等种原因所造成的堵塞）。 3、墫坑：对于70年代至80年代初所建的楼房蹲坑，北京朝阳区管道疏通由于水质差的原因，时间一长，水垢 及尿碱堆积在管道里，造成下水慢、极易堵塞，本公司采用最佳技术方案专用 疏通除垢机，全面清理干净彻底疏通干净

[bogartin]

马桶：1、马桶：专业疏通各种型号马桶（抹布、塑料）等各种软硬物质所造成的堵塞。2、地漏： z专业疏 通各种v型、S型拐弯的地漏，北京朝阳区管道疏通（因为装修掉进水泥、沙子或头发等种原因所造 成的堵塞）。 3、墫坑：对于70年代至80年代初所建的楼房蹲坑，北京朝阳区管道疏通由于水质差的原因，时间一长，水垢 及尿碱堆积在管道里，造成下水慢、北京朝阳区管道疏通极易堵塞，本公司采用最佳技术方案专用疏通除垢机，全 面清理干净彻底疏通干净专业疏通各种型号马桶（抹布、 塑料）等各种软硬物质所造成的堵塞。2、地漏：专业疏通各种v型、S型拐弯的地漏，（北京朝阳区管道疏通因 为装修掉进水泥、沙子或头发等种原因所造成的堵塞）。 3、墫坑：对于70年代至80年代初所建的楼房蹲坑，北京朝阳区管道疏通由于水质差的原因，时间一长，水垢 及尿碱堆积在管道里，造成下水慢、极易堵塞，本公司采用最佳技术方案专用 疏通除垢机，全面清理干净彻底疏通干净

Sometimes I just don't understand you...

[Blog]

Sometimes I just don't understand you...

:love8:

[LAW]

How come this has become an attack on some average guy that has asked questions? Have we sunk that low? Seriously WTF does this have to do with Obama and McCain?

WHO GIVES A SHIT about some plumber?!?!?!?

Obviously McCain does, I mean did you watch the last debate or the campaign stop where McCain asked Joe to stand and he wasn't there?

[LAW]

It's funny how all this info about Joe the plumber can come out in a few days, but Obama's Birth Certifcate and School records are sealed tight, an unconsititutional for CITIZENS to question or ask for that information to be released... Hmmm .... does tha sound fair? One guy is running to be the leader of the country and we cant find out if he got student loans as an exchange student or what. Find out how he registered himself at school. Yet, if we want to discredit a simple plumber then THAT information can come out so quickly. That is absolutely disgusting.

Sealed like McCain's POW files?

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[LAW]

I am just curious as to your take on Obama being an Illegal Alien. If you have a chance to look at it I would like to hear your opinion.



I don't find any of the evidence convincing, especially the fact that Mr. Berg admits he could very well be wrong.

As to the renunciation of Obama's citizenship, I was able to locate this:


Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship


A. THE IMMIGRATION & NATIONALITY ACT

Section 349(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(5)) is the section of law that governs the ability of a United States citizen to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship. That section of law provides for the loss of nationality by voluntarily performing the following act with the intent to relinquish his or her U.S. nationality:

"(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state , in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State" (emphasis added).

B. ELEMENTS OF RENUNCIATION

A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
sign an oath of renunciation
Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of section 349(a)(5), Americans cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States. In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds, as discussed below.

C. REQUIREMENT - RENOUNCE ALL RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES

In the case of Colon v. U.S. Department of State , 2 F.Supp.2d 43 (1998), plaintiff was a United States citizen and resident of Puerto Rico, who executed an oath of renunciation before a consular officer at the U.S. Embassy in Santo Domingo. The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia rejected Colon’s petition for a writ of mandamus directing the Secretary of State to approve a Certificate of Loss of Nationality in the case because the plaintiff wanted to retain one of the primary benefits of U.S. citizenship while claiming he was not a U.S. citizen. The Court described the plaintiff as a person, "claiming to renounce all rights and privileges of United States citizenship, [while] Plaintiff wants to continue to exercise one of the fundamental rights of citizenship, namely to travel freely throughout the world and when he wants to, return and reside in the United States." See also Jose Fufi Santori v. United States of America , 1994 U.S. App. LEXIS 16299 (1994) for a similar case.

A person who wants to renounce U.S. citizenship cannot decide to retain some of the privileges of citizenship, as this would be logically inconsistent with the concept of renunciation. Thus, such a person can be said to lack a full understanding of renouncing citizenship and/or lack the necessary intent to renounce citizenship, and the Department of State will not approve a loss of citizenship in such instances.

D. DUAL NATIONALITY / STATELESSNESS

Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if they were not stateless, they would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP). If found ineligible for a visa or the VWPP to come to the U.S., a renunciant, under certain circumstances, could be barred from entering the United States. Nonetheless, renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual back to the United States in some non-citizen status.

E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION

Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.

F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN

Parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation, is not subject to duress or undue influence, and is voluntarily seeking to renounce his/her U.S. citizenship.

G. IRREVOCABILITY OF RENUNCIATION

Finally, those contemplating a renunciation of U.S. citizenship should understand that the act is irrevocable, except as provided in section 351 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1483), and cannot be canceled or set aside absent successful administrative or judicial appeal. (Section 351(b) of the INA provides that an applicant who renounced his or her U.S. citizenship before the age of eighteen can have that citizenship reinstated if he or she makes that desire known to the Department of State within six months after attaining the age of eighteen. See also Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, section 50.20).

Renunciation is the most unequivocal way in which a person can manifest an intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Please consider the effects of renouncing U.S. citizenship, described above, before taking this serious and irrevocable action. If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact:

Express Mail:
Director
Office of Policy Review and Inter-Agency Liaison (CA/OCS/PRI)
Overseas Citizens Services
Bureau of Consular Affairs
U.S. Department of State
4th Floor
2100 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20037
Phone: 202-736-9110
Fax: 202-736-9111
Email: ASKPRI@state.gov

Regular Mail
Director
Office of Policy Review and Inter-Agency Liaison (CA/OCS/PRI)
Overseas Citizens Services
Bureau of Consular Affairs
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Big Chris, we shouldn't question this either? Oh, I forgot he's into "fairness"/ Socialism.

[bigdogchris]

Big Chris, we shouldn't question this either? Oh, I forgot he's into "fairness"/ Socialism.As far as I know, he was born in Honolulu Hawaii. If he was not he wouldn't of been allowed to run for the Presidency.

And no, I don't support Socialism. I support the free market and Capitalism. I think it's cute how you throw words like socialism around because it really bites and sounds bad, yet don't give examples of how we're 'Socialist'. You quickly call Obama socialist because he easily tagable due to erroring on the side of people rather than business, who are going to do well one way or another. Conservatives started calling Dems socialist in the 40's and 50's and the USA is no more 'socialist' now than we were then'.

I don't support people who want something for nothing but I also don't support corporations and business who don't want to pay their employee's what they deserve or fire people just to maintain a huge profit margin. I also don't like what the UAW has done to the auto industry because they don't deserve $80/hour (including benefits) to bolt pieces of plastic together. GM has had it's own problems though due to piss poor management since the late 70's.

I don't support 'fairness' for people who don't want to do anything and sit around collecting welfare because it's a better deal than actually working. That system is broke and needs to be fixed but at the same time when your job moves to Mexico and you have 5 kids you have to feed, do you expect them to die like we live in a third world country? It's not easy to walk into a new job that you can support your family on, or a job that you are guaranteed to be able to keep. The social system is designed to give people time. Unfortunately it can be abused, which is wrong. I feel though that a large amount of people that receive social support want to work if they could, but there are not enough jobs, or jobs that they could support their family on. So it's a better deal to stay on it. If we were more strict with the rules, it would over time, I think, keep people from becoming lazy, knowing they can't fall back on it if they just don't want to work.

This is the United States of America, the greatest country in the world. It's not 'fairness' to expect to be able to raise a family and be able to support them as long as your willing to work for it. If you call that Socialism or me a Socialist because I think an average guy that wants to work, should be able to support his family, then so be it. You can't support a family on $7.25/hour, which is what a lot of places want to pay. Because of that the government has to step in and offer support. So who's fault is it, does the Government stop the support, allowing the family to starve or does the business pay more? This recession shows you exactly what you get from giving big tax breaks to businesses (that Bush signed in 2000 or 2001)... absolutely jack shit. That's why you need to error on the side of the people.

Remember, Socialism is government run business. If you ask me, subsidizing businesses with huge tax breaks and other subsidizations that goes to insurance companies IS BUSINESS SOCIALISM. So what is it that you truly believe in? Are you really against socialism, which includes business subsidies, or just against Obama and are not intelligent enough to think of a way to debate his policies? You just call him a Socialist because it's easy to do, joining right up with all the other people who just scream at each other.